Despite their increasing success, Luke Meagher and Pierre A. M’Pelé will always feel like fashion outsiders. Since they emerged on the industry’s fringes in the late 2010s, the pair have built formidable careers as critics: Meagher through his savagely honest YouTube channel, HauteLeMode, and M’Pelé through his irresistibly puckish Instagram account @PAM_BOY. Both were started as a way to break into the then-impenetrable fortress of luxury fashion: a land they saw as full of dusty legacy publications, high school-style hierarchies, and sycophantic ego pandering.

For Meagher, this meant creating a space online where he could be ‘fun, sassy, bi**hy, analytical’ (a description that is now HauteLeMode’s motto). The 24-year-old New Yorker founded the channel in 2015 while still in high school, after stumbling into the rabbit hole of fashion history and falling in love. He started making short vlogs to share his newly acquired knowledge, before pivoting fearlessly into criticism. The channel has since racked up nearly 93 million views and now has more than 639,000 subscribers (as well as accompanying Instagram, Twitter and TikTok accounts). And over the years, Meagher hasn’t been afraid to deploy his often eye-watering ‘tell-it-like-it-is’ approach to fashion criticism, waging war with everyone from Clare Waight Keller’s Givenchy to Maria Grazia Chiuri’s Dior to Hedi Slimane’s Celine.

M’Pelé is more measured, though just as mischievous. The 28-year-old’s path- way into fashion has been more conventional, with his @PAM_BOY Instagram serving as a springboard for editor roles at i-D, Perfect and LOVE. Like Meagher, he prides himself on both his honesty and his deep love for fashion: his social media is an enlivening mix of memes, razor-sharp commentary and playful, incisive reviews (perhaps most famous are his emoji runway recaps). It’s a talent that hasn’t gone unnoticed by the establishment: on the day of this interview, it was announced he would become GQ France’s head of editorial content. ‘I want to carry on being spontaneous and free,’ he says, after being congratulated on the role by an effusive Meagher. ‘I want to allow myself to be surprised by this industry still.’

Let’s talk about your beginnings. Luke, you started HauteLeMode as a YouTube channel in 2015, right?

Luke Meagher: Yes, at the time, there was a rise in YouTubers who were incredibly popular, and I could see that people were really invested in the people on the screen. It’s almost like characters on TV; people get attached to you, even if they might not know who you are. That is why I thought YouTube was the place to start for me, and it worked out perfectly because it did everything I expected it to. I had really begun making fashion-conscious content in the way that I am now by early
2016.

Pierre, you launched yourself through the @PAM_BOY Instagram.

Pierre A. M’Pelé: I used to use Instagram like everyone else, posting my holiday pictures and fun imagery; it wasn’t so much about fashion. Then when I graduated in 2017, I was freelancing here and there, but I needed to get my content and words out there. I thought Instagram was the best platform, because if you can capture people’s attention with a good image then they will ultimately read the caption. And the longer the caption was, the more positive the feedback, so I thought maybe that was something people were ready to see on Instagram. I had thought it was just about images, but in fact, people were hungry for words.

What can you remember about the fashion industry at that time? What was wrong with it? What did you feel you needed to change?

Pierre: I was personally hungry for criticism. Like Luke, I grew up with Style.com, Tim Blanks, Cathy Horyn and all these people who have helped shape how we understand fashion. But then when I started developing my own voice, I felt that there wasn’t a new generation of people of that calibre. I’m not comparing myself to those legends of fashion journalism, but I felt that there was an opportunity to speak to people our age, and people who didn’t want to just listen to the establishment. There was a bit of a rebellious feel to it. It was more about being super honest. I felt like I had the freedom to be as free as possible and that is what I wanted to see. I was writing content that I wanted to read.

Luke: HauteLeMode was about understanding and contextualizing fashion for the everyday person. I do really love in-depth, academic analysis of fashion, but I think the everyday person won’t always get the context and references. So for me, HauteLeMode is a way to make fashion fun and approachable.

You’re both known for having strong, sometimes controversial opinions. Do you still feel comfortable expressing yourself in that way?

Pierre: I do feel comfortable, but I also feel – and especially with my new job – that I have transitioned from writing and criticism to more of a broader editorial
vision, and that has always been my goal. I never really wanted to be just a critic or just a writer or just a journalist. I can still be very opinionated, but even when I’ve
shared a negative or constructive review of a designer or creative director, I still end up having a great relationship with them. I have called Olivier Rousteing tacky before, but he and I are still really good friends. It’s never been my goal to destroy; it was to keep the conversation going. I’m not trying to cancel anyone or create some kind of mob to destroy whatever they are trying to build, and designers always understood that. I have also matured: when you are 22 or 24, you feel a lot less inclined to compromise and you feel a lot more empowered by the responses that you get from people. That is how it works in social media; we all know that – it is all about creating antagonism – but I can still be a bitch when it’s needed!

Luke, you don’t have a problem with being a bitch.

Luke: No, it’s my calling card. I think that is part and parcel of the whole idea of making things accessible for the everyday person. Fashion people use a lot of
highfalutin words, but I don’t think they are actually describing any of the things that they are talking about. I’m far more down in the gutter, like, ‘This looks like
shit!’ What I say might not be politically correct, but it is also what the everyday person gravitates towards. You are not punching down but punching up. I think a lot of fashion is punching down: whether that’s taking from homeless people in the 1980s, like Rei Kawakubo, or from poor Soviet children in the 1990s. So when you are able to jab a bit at the top, I think it helps everyone to be part of the joke. I do also think the harshness hurts certain people, as Pierre says. I have been banned from a show or two when the PRs are upset. But then that is also part of the game. If the collection is not good, I’m not saying that to be mean to you; I’m saying that because you are not upholding the legacy of the brand, and because I don’t think you are spending enough time doing the thing you are supposed to be doing, while there is probably a shit ton of other designers around who are not getting paid nearly as much. I think we have to hold everybody to task. But then it’s hard to go to Europe and be schmoozed by a brand. If it offers to pay for your hotel or your flight, then that is sort of an ethical dilemma. What I am trying to grapple with now is being able to say what I want, while also getting the access that I need.

Pierre: Luke, do you feel that you are part of the establishment? Because to me you are, if not in a traditional sense. You are the establishment when it comes to fashion and YouTube, and you do have power. Do you think about your own influence?

Luke: I wouldn’t say that I am part of the establishment, because I am still sending emails saying, ‘Hi, can I come to the show?’ It’s not really about how many followers or likes you have, or what your engagement is, because people don’t really consider social-media platforms as desirable. I think maybe in a digital sense, you could think of me as the establishment, but I constantly run up against so many barriers within the fashion industry that I don’t think of myself that way.

How do you feel about the way the fashion world is adapting to this new digital era? Are there any brands that are doing good things, or any that you think are flailing?

Pierre: Gucci is one that has always been consistently good in terms of digital. They have managed to understand more than many other brands, who their audiences are, where they are and how to target them in terms of marketing. From the Gucci Fest to all the people they associate themselves with on social media, they are probably at the top in terms of understanding how we are shifting to an all-digital industry.

Luke: I agree, Gucci is great. Also Balenciaga, who have started to really push the digital strategy in a way that is intriguing and weird.

Pierre: It’s refreshing to see a brand like Balenciaga that is synonymous with high luxury – a brand that everyone respects – being completely disruptive. Demna is a disruptor. It is just very, very smart.

Is fashion still powered by traditional power politics? How can that change?

Luke: Yes. I’ve understood that during fashion weeks. Not to be an arsehole, but YouTubers, Instagrammers and photographers come from a digital perspective, so we compare our numbers, and when you see certain publications with seven or eight people sitting on the front row, and all together they only have a small part of your engagement, it’s like, ‘OK, how does that work?’ It is not what you do and how you do it, it is still very much who you know – and that I really did not realize until very recently. It doesn’t matter who you are and how many followers you have, you still have to play the game.

Pierre: It’s also because the people in top positions haven’t really moved. It’s the same people who have been editors-in-chief for many, many years. The power structure is still very much the same and as long as you don’t have the tools in your hand, it doesn’t matter how many followers and how much engagement you have. To get those tools, there needs to be a generational shift, and people need to retire. I know it sounds harsh, but it is the truth: people need to make more room and space for younger voices to flourish in the industry. Because then these people will have the tools in their hands to act and to drive change.

Do you think the media is to blame for this stagnancy, too?

Pierre: Definitely, both the designer side and the media. In the 1960s and 1970s, there was space for new voices. Balenciaga retired in 1968, but he wasn’t kicked out. He was still Cristóbal Balenciaga, and he was still great, but he felt the need for young people and young voices. Now it seems that people are hanging onto power because power is sweet and delicious. Until we change the mindset and allow ourselves to move on from certain practices then new voices won’t be able to flourish. It is really a matter of people realizing that you don’t have to hold onto power – you don’t have to stay in your position for 30 years.

Luke: There comes a complacency with power, as Pierre is saying, and that leads to the issues we are seeing more of now. Everyone knows that people go to a show or an event, see a collection, but what they say in their reviews is not what they are going to say to their friends at dinner later that day. People are not content with the industry because there is a lack of skill, and people aren’t being pushed to elevate their work. At a certain point, you reach a place where you get complacent, and you don’t feel you have to continue pushing. To bring up Balenciaga again, the man was still developing in 1967, 1968, creating new takes and checking every single order before it left the atelier. There is no longer that desire to push more, to learn more, to elevate. I’m thinking of Alexander McQueen;
his inherent understanding of tailoring allowed him to develop new silhouettes. It’s the same thing with Balenciaga and Vionnet: they were designers who really cared about what they did and weren’t necessarily obsessed with fame and fortune. We don’t really have people who care about the craft as much as they used to.

Pierre: Fashion was not as glamorous then; being a fashion designer was not as glamorous, and fashion was not as popular. Today, especially with fame being such a valuable commodity, it has changed the way that we understand our industry.

Are you saying that one reason fashion feels so stagnant now is because of our collective hunger for fame and because our values are all in the wrong place?

Pierre: How many conversations have I had with people on Instagram about how they want to be in fashion, or be an editor or a designer, when really all they want to do is hang out with Bella Hadid?

Luke: That’s great, but that is not the reason why you should be getting into the gig.

Pierre: Fashion has become so popular that people just think it is attainable and easy. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be democratic or accessible, but we should
reward people who are in it because they want to drive change, not because they want to elevate themselves. I mean, we all want to elevate ourselves, we are all striving for more and to be able to do good things, but there are different breeds of people interested in fashion. I am very doubtful when it comes to certain people’s intentions as to why they want to be part of this industry. We have glamorized it so much; people think fashion is about the Met Gala, but it isn’t – the Met Gala is just a big party. When I fell in love with fashion, I never thought of the Met Gala. When I was a teenager I didn’t know the Met Gala even existed. I was just interested in the clothes and the collections and what the designers had to say. Luke was saying how what people write and what they say behind closed doors is different, and it’s true, and that is where that wider conversation about money and power comes along. When you start to be more part of the industry, you understand all these connections. There are things I want to say, but I have to suppress my own voice – not all the time, and it doesn’t happen a lot, but it does
happen. That is why I love Luke’s power and independence because YouTube allows you, to a certain extent, to be more than someone who works for a magazine or for a young designer who wants to get that job in a big house.

Luke: There are a lot of issues with the truth in our industry. We are devoid of people saying how they really feel, so when they do say something that is not
wholly positive, there is an automatic ‘no’ switch because it’s a really jarring thing for people to hear. It doesn’t register for them, so you are automatically cut off. Once they realize that they can’t control you as much, they offer you less. This is also just human nature: fashion is an embodiment of the human ego because we all think we are all more important than we actually are and that we deserve more than we probably do, me included. Going to fashion weeks is like being in high school again; it is a hierarchy thing. You are playing mind games with yourself all the time, thinking that you’re not important and that people are going to look down on you. It’s a whole mindfuck. I cried at least three times this last season and there have been high-profile editors and stylists who have said they cried a lot, too.
It is far more mentally and emotionally draining than people let on.

Pierre: The one thing I say to myself is, ‘The planet is burning, get over yourself!’ Whenever I feel that, or whenever I see someone who is behaving in a way that I think is inappropriate, I remember that no one is curing cancer here. Somehow we still think we are.

What are your feelings about fashion
weeks more generally? It seems to be
an abusive and horrible experience for
everyone involved.
Pierre: I do not enjoy fashion weeks; I
have never enjoyed fashion weeks. It’s

the moment of the year that my fami-
ly knows not to message me because I

will be irritated, and I will probably cry
on the phone. I never get enough sleep.
If you’re, say, Anna Wintour, then I am
sure it’s a great experience, but when

you are mid-level or when you are just
starting, it’s not. It is very difficult to

get access, and it’s a very stressful envi-
ronment because you feel so exposed.

You have to meet people who don’t nec-
essarily have your back and are there

constantly. It’s a sprint and a marathon
at the same time: the season lasts for a
month and feels never ending. Brands
put a lot of money into those big shows
and events, so if you don’t go then you
are impeding on your own career, and
that creates a tremendous amount of
stress. You also hear a lot of disgusting
things about how people behave in our
industry – and I’m not someone who
would judge because we are all human
beings, and no one is perfect – but I feel
like fashion weeks create this bubble
where everything is intensified. How
do you feel about it, Luke?

Luke: It is very intense. Everyone is
jostling for the same shit, so they want
what they want out of you, but then
when you are inconvenient… I get that
sitting front row is a status symbol, but
I would like to sit front row because I

would like to see the clothes. Other-
wise just let me do a press preview or

come to the re-see the day after. If I get
third row and I can’t see shit then there

is no point in even going. It’s the men-
tality that there are all these other peo-
ple who are more important than you,

and we internalize that, but if I can’t see
the fucking clothes then, no offence, but
why am I here? The whole thing is a very
high-school mentality. We are all just

horrible human egos constantly second-
guessing ourselves. Maybe other people

don’t, but I think you have to be incred-
ibly mentally strong to do the fashion

weeks and feel super great about your-
self the whole time.

Pierre: Change is definitely on the way.

Younger people and younger gener-
ations – not me, I am so insecure, but

people like you, Luke – will go to a
fashion show now in Adidas shorts and
a hoodie. I am still like, ‘Oh my God,
how can you do that?’ Because the way
I dress is my protection; it’s my armour.
I want to look good because we know
how superficial fashion people are.
But I wish I had Luke’s confidence to
just go there and not give a fuck about
anything, and just focus on the clothes.
That’s very brave, I think.

What about politics? We’re in an era now where a lot of brands are co-opting radical political movements and language – like Maria Grazia Chiuri’s ‘feminist’ Dior runway last year – so what do you think about the role politics plays in fashion? What social responsibility should brands have?

Pierre: I think if it’s something that’s completely inherent to a designer or a brand’s point of view, then they should be political. Fashion has always been political, from women deciding to wear miniskirts to the punk revolution. It has always been linked in one way or another to politics, and today, especially post-
George Floyd, I feel like there has been a shift in people understanding the trade’s systemic racism, and how we’ve portrayed black male and female bodies in fashion. In some instances, it has been pretty racist. I also think brands should be political even when it’s not serving their interests – if you are political just because you’ll be able to sell more bags or perfume or shoes then I don’t really believe in your message. I have been working with brands on certain questions concerning systemic racism, and it’s all internal; they don’t communicate [publicly] about it. Then you have brands that know being political is very trendy and you just need a social-media post to just show people that you are fighting the battle when really you are not.

Luke: If you are going to do it, then fucking do it and shut up. I don’t think that incessantly talking about it is going to help you. Just fucking give the money, do the collaborations, make sure your teams internally are actually diverse and not just all white people. An Instagram post is not political.

Are there any brands that you would be comfortable saying have disappointed you, particularly post-George Floyd?

Pierre: Brands have been making an effort, but it is super slow. It’s an industry that’s quick to make the next billion, but really slow to drive social change. I will forever be disappointed with Dolce & Gabbana – pre-, post- and during George Floyd – but I’m not necessarily disappointed in any others. It is sad that it took such a tragic event to create the impulse for such a change: we shouldn’t wait for a tragedy to get the ball rolling on those issues. Maybe I am a bit disappointed with every single brand that didn’t do that in the past, but post-George Floyd there has been a real willingness to advocate change.

Luke: I can’t say that I see any change. For the most part we have gone back to business as usual. I’ve noticed more people interacting with fashion like Telfar or Hood by Air, and shopping from smaller Black-owned businesses, but that is more from the everyday person rather than these gigantic conglomerates that could do so much.

What are your thoughts on call-out culture and Instagram accounts like Diet Prada?

Luke: I have no personal issues with them whatsoever, but I unfollowed Diet Prada years ago. It’s not for me. That said, I don’t think people give Diet Prada enough credit: it has scared a lot of brands into not stealing young designers’ work. But I don’t see Diet Prada unless someone sends me a post. I don’t think about them that much.

Pierre: They have created a very negative environment in fashion. In the beginning it was fine, but now the bulk of what they do is witch-hunts, and it’s not so constructive or necessary. Also, everyone has to pay their bills, but they got into bed with brands and started taking money from them. You cannot be a watchdog and then be sitting in the Prada front row. It has to be either or… I always say, look at the comments section; it’s a very toxic, the environment they have created. When you see people asking for people’s deaths, it is just really gross. I think they have encouraged it because their following is growing and that is all that actually matters to them. They are just here for themselves. It grows off negativity and toxicity. But I can also see that when it comes to certain issues, they have done an amazing job. I am not completely anti-Diet Prada. They have amplified conversations that need to be amplified, around #MeToo and so on. But when they started encouraging a mob culture and getting all nasty and personal, then I blocked them. Fashion can be toxic by itself; you don’t need to add more voices to create a negative environment. It’s just not needed. It has happened to me a few times, where people start being rude to each other in my comments section, and I just delete and block them. This is not the space for people to insult each other – where is the civility in that? It can become dangerous and can affect people’s mental health. You can be critical and harsh and super honest without crossing boundaries. I think they have allowed people to do that though. From the moment I noticed that I was done with it. That is not the kind of industry that I would like to be a part of.

What about your predictions for the future of the industry, particularly when it comes to sustainability? Do you feel optimistic about it?

Luke: I genuinely think it is just going to be the same. I have participated with it – I went to LA for the Gucci show, going from London and Paris and Milan, using cars and flights and Ubers, and I am just one person – but I don’t think it will change in the way that we think. At least with the gigantic brands, it just doesn’t make sense: creating a bag is wasteful, but then you put it in a box, with tissue paper and with a ribbon, and in another bag. I know this sounds terrible, but I think you are
going to need natural disasters to really scare the shit out of people into giving up this stuff. I Google ‘climate change’ once a week, and I have an existential crisis every time. It is great to see mycelium leather from Hermès, but you still have crocodile farms. And the issues are so complex: people don’t like exotic skins and crocodile farming, but they are also creating jobs with which people are supporting their families. Each and every tiny little decision has so many repercussions.

Pierre: Could they at least just shut off the lights in their flagships at night? I think it’s important to be optimistic, otherwise I would go and have a goat farm and live a great sustainable life outside of fashion. But I think it will take time, because getting a big brand to change a production line is not something you can do overnight. Are they making these changes as quickly as they can? Probably not. But do their efforts keep me optimistic? Yes, because I want to believe that people want change. I have a lot more confidence in younger brands that don’t want to be part of this system and whose priorities are not to sell millions or make billions. There are people who just want to make a comfortable living and keep on being creative: they don’t want to burn out or have a mega-yacht or private jet, they just want to keep on being creative. There are many young designers who truly inspire me in that sense. Do we actually need to make more money? Is it always about making more money? They are getting ready to establish the new ways and practices of the future. If you want things to be done a certain way, you can put your foot down, and you will be surprised to see how many times people will go your way.

The pandemic seems to have changed how many people approach and prioritize work. Does that make you feel more optimistic about the industry’s future?

Pierre: For sure. I think I have learned how to slow down, and I think we all need to slow down even more and reshuffle our priorities. There is no need to be constantly sprinting. We all need to be kinder to ourselves. All these fashion things, as important as they are culturally, on a personal level, they’re not that deep. And that’s coming from someone who loves fashion so much.

Luke: I personally think it has almost made us unhealthier, in a work sense. The fashion-week schedule was crammed, but now there are shows all the time. There is not a person who can take time to write, work, or discuss these collections because there are so many. I don’t think the human brain can logically churn out so many opinions. You used to have a two-month break between fashion months, but now it is once a week or every two weeks. That doesn’t allow you to focus on other things. For me, the red carpets and all of that, are so much to handle that I don’t fucking care any more. It is impossible for the human brain to keep up with everything going on.

Pierre: You need to put boundaries and be kind to yourself. I used to run everywhere all the time – the fear of missing out! The FOMO! And now after the pandemic, I’m like, ‘Please, just leave me alone!’

Luke, that sounds just like what’s happened to you.

Luke: Yeah – I’m like, ‘Thank you, but no thank you.’